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Well, I have to say actually being involved in the A.I. The surrealists used to choose a Paris streetcar at random, ride to the end of the line and then walk around. And then once youve done that kind of exploration of the space of possibilities, then as an adult now in that environment, you can decide which of those things you want to have happen. now and Ive been spending a lot of time collaborating with people in computer science at Berkeley who are trying to design better artificial intelligence systems the current systems that we have, I mean, the languages theyre designed to optimize, theyre really exploit systems. Ive trained myself to be productive so often that its sometimes hard to put it down. But its really fascinating that its the young animals who are playing. So for instance, if you look at rats and you look at the rats who get to do play fighting versus rats who dont, its not that the rats who play can do things that the rats cant play can, like every specific fighting technique the rats will have. Gopnik, 1982, for further discussion). And if you think about play, the definition of play is that its the thing that you do when youre not working. But a lot of it is just all this other stuff, right? The amazing thing about kids is that they do things that are unexpected. So the question is, if we really wanted to have A.I.s that were really autonomous and maybe we dont want to have A.I.s that are really autonomous. But its the state that theyre in a lot of the time and a state that theyre in when theyre actually engaged in play. And Im always looking for really good clean composition apps. One way you could think about it is, our ecological niche is the unknown unknowns. program, can do something that no two-year-old can do effortlessly, which is mimic the text of a certain kind of author. The philosophical baby: What children's minds tell us about truth, love & the meaning of life. And I said, you mean Where the Wild Things Are? I feel like thats an answer thats going to launch 100 science fiction short stories, as people imagine the stories youre describing here. And meanwhile, I dont want to put too much weight on its beating everybody at Go, but that what it does seem plausible it could do in 10 years will be quite remarkable. Youre watching consciousness come online in real-time. As always, my email is ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com, if youve got something to teach me. Its a conversation about humans for humans. What does taking more seriously what these states of consciousness are like say about how you should act as a parent and uncle and aunt, a grandparent? Several studies suggest that specific rela-tions between semantic and cognitive devel-opment may exist. is trying to work through a maze in unity, and the kids are working through the maze in unity. So just by doing just by being a caregiver, just by caring, what youre doing is providing the context in which this kind of exploration can take place. So if youre thinking about intelligence, theres a real genuine tradeoff between your ability to explore as many options as you can versus your ability to quickly, efficiently commit to a particular option and implement it. I was thinking about how a moment ago, you said, play is what you do when youre not working. Everything around you becomes illuminated. But I think you can see the same thing in non-human animals and not just in mammals, but in birds and maybe even in insects. Alison Gopnik. But, again, the sort of baseline is that humans have this really, really long period of immaturity. It probably wont surprise you that Im one of those parents who reads a lot of books about parenting. But if you do the same walk with a two-year-old, you realize, wait a minute. But it also involves allowing the next generation to take those values, look at them in the context of the environment they find themselves in now, reshape them, rethink them, do all the things that we were mentioning that teenagers do consider different kinds of alternatives. My example is Augie, my grandson. And he was absolutely right. Alison Gopnik Freelance Writer, Freelance Berkeley Health, U.S. As seen in: The Guardian, The New York Times, HuffPost, The Wall Street Journal, ABC News (Australia), Color Research & Application, NPR, The Atlantic, The Economist, The New Yorker and more But here is Alison Gopnik. And one of the things that we discovered was that if you look at your understanding of the physical world, the preschoolers are the most flexible, and then they get less flexible at school age and then less so with adolescence. In "Possible Worlds: Why Do Children Pretend" by Alison Gopnik, the author talks about children and adults understanding the past and using it to help one later in life. And it just goes around and turns everything in the world, including all the humans and all the houses and everything else, into paper clips. Instead, children and adults are different forms of Homo sapiens. Youre desperately trying to focus on the specific things that you said that you would do. Understanding show more content Gopnik continues her article about children using their past to shape their future. Something that strikes me about this conversation is exactly what you are touching on, this idea that you can have one objective function. But I think they spend much more of their time in that state. One of the things I really like about this is that it pushes towards a real respect for the childs brain. And the idea is maybe we could look at some of the things that the two-year-olds do when theyre learning and see if that makes a difference to what the A.I.s are doing when theyre learning. But then you can give it something that is just obviously not a cat or a dog, and theyll make a mistake. Rising costs and a shortage of workers are pushing the Southwest-style restaurant chain to do more with less. So they have one brain in the center in their head, and then they have another brain or maybe eight brains in each one of the tentacles. So my five-year-old grandson, who hasnt been in our house for a year, first said, I love you, grandmom, and then said, you know, grandmom, do you still have that book that you have at your house with the little boy who has this white suit, and he goes to the island with the monsters on it, and then he comes back again? But it also turns out that octos actually have divided brains. I mean, obviously, Im a writer, but I like writing software. So its also for the children imitating the more playful things that the adults are doing, or at least, for robots, thats helping the robots to be more effective. So theres always this temptation to do that, even though the advantages that play gives you seem to be these advantages of robustness and resilience. Or theres a distraction in the back of your brain, something that is in your visual field that isnt relevant to what you do. Alison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and affiliate professor of philosophy at the University of California at Berkeley, and a member of the Berkeley AI Research Group. As always, if you want to help the show out, leave us a review wherever you are listening to it now. Articles by Ismini A. Cognitive psychologist Alison Gopnik has been studying this landscape of children and play for her whole career. So when you start out, youve got much less of that kind of frontal control, more of, I guess, in some ways, almost more like the octos where parts of your brain are doing their own thing. But then theyre taking that information and integrating it with all the other information they have, say, from their own exploration and putting that together to try to design a new way of being, to try and do something thats different from all the things that anyone has done before. And this constant touching back, I dont think I appreciated what a big part of development it was until I was a parent. As youve been learning so much about the effort to create A.I., has it made you think about the human brain differently? And I suspect that they each come with a separate, a different kind of focus, a different way of being. https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-emotional-benefits-of-wandering-11671131450. So there are these children who are just leading this very ordinary British middle class life in the 30s. And the octopus is very puzzling because the octos dont have a long childhood. And an idea that I think a lot of us have now is that part of that is because youve really got these two different creatures. Like, it would be really good to have robots that could pick things up and put them in boxes, right? But you sort of say that children are the R&D wing of our species and that as generations turn over, we change in ways and adapt to things in ways that the normal genetic pathway of evolution wouldnt necessarily predict. So if youre looking for a real lightweight, easy place to do some writing, Calmly Writer. In A.I., you sort of have a choice often between just doing the thing thats the obvious thing that youve been trained to do or just doing something thats kind of random and noisy. And is that the dynamic that leads to this spotlight consciousness, lantern consciousness distinction? Alison Gopnik has spent the better part of her career as a child psychologist studying this very phenomenon. Or another example is just trying to learn a skill that you havent learned before. Theyre not always in that kind of broad state. And one of them in particular that I read recently is The Philosophical Baby, which blew my mind a little bit. And it turned out that the problem was if you train the robot that way, then they learn how to do exactly the same thing that the human did. They mean they have trouble going from putting the block down at this point to putting the block down a centimeter to the left, right? Thats a really deep part of it. And I have done a bit of meditation and workshops, and its always a little amusing when you see the young men who are going to prove that theyre better at meditating. And think of Mrs. Dalloway in London, Leopold Bloom in Dublin or Holden Caulfield in New York. So if you look at the social parts of the brain, you see this kind of rebirth of plasticity and flexibility in adolescence. And you look at parental environment, and thats responsible for some of it. Illustration by Alex Eben Meyer. Why Barnes & Noble Is Copying Local Bookstores It Once Threatened, What Floridas Dying Oranges Tell Us About How Commodity Markets Work, Watch: Heavy Snowfall Shuts Down Parts of California, U.K., EU Agree to New Northern Ireland Trade Deal. Is this curious, rather than focusing your attention and consciousness on just one thing at a time. So if you think from this broad evolutionary perspective about these creatures that are designed to explore, I think theres a whole lot of other things that go with that. And the phenomenology of that is very much like this kind of lantern, that everything at once is illuminated. If you're unfamiliar with Gopnik's work, you can find a quick summary of it in her Ted Talk " What Do Babies Think ?" Its not random. And we can think about what is it. Now its not a form of experience and consciousness so much, but its a form of activity. And you dont see the things that are on the other side. And of course, youve got the best play thing there could be, which is if youve got a two-year-old or a three-year-old or a four-year-old, they kind of force you to be in that state, whether you start out wanting to be or not. working group there. So the A.I. So youre actually taking in information from everything thats going on around you. She is the author or coauthor of over 100 journal articles and several books, including "Words, thoughts and theories" MIT Press . Its absolutely essential for that broad-based learning and understanding to happen. She is the firstborn of six siblings who include Blake Gopnik, the Newsweek art critic, and Adam Gopnik, a writer for The New Yorker.She was formerly married to journalist George Lewinski and has three sons: Alexei, Nicholas, and Andres Gopnik-Lewinski. So one piece that we think is really important is this exploration, this ability to go out and find out things about the world, do experiments, be curious. And its worth saying, its not like the children are always in that state. The consequence of that is that you have this young brain that has a lot of what neuroscientists call plasticity. Her research explores how young children come to know about the world around them. Early reasoning about desires: evidence from 14-and 18-month-olds. And again, thats a lot of the times, thats a good thing because theres other things that we have to do. So theres two big areas of development that seem to be different. And each one of them is going to come out to be really different from anything you would expect beforehand, which is something that I think anybody who has had more than one child is very conscious of. Look at them from different angles, look at them from the top, look at them from the bottom, look at your hands this way, look at your hands that way. And the children will put all those together to design the next thing that would be the right thing to do. I think its off, but I think its often in a way thats actually kind of interesting. And the same thing is true with Mary Poppins. Alison Gopnik is a professor of psychology and affiliate professor of philosophy at the University of California at Berkeley. And empirically, what you see is that very often for things like music or clothing or culture or politics or social change, you see that the adolescents are on the edge, for better or for worse. Babies' brains,. This byline is mine, but I want my name removed. Now, were obviously not like that. Its encoded into the way our brains change as we age. And I think thats kind of the best analogy I can think of for the state that the children are in. So part of it kind of goes in circles. You can even see that in the brain. In The Gardener and the Carpenter, the pioneering developmental psychologist and philosopher Alison Gopnik argues that the familiar twenty-first-century picture of parents and children is profoundly wrongit's not just based on bad science, it's bad for kids and parents, too. Unlike my son and I dont want to brag here unlike my son, I can make it from his bedroom to the kitchen without any stops along the way. project, in many ways, makes the differences more salient than the similarities. And the most important thing is, is this going to teach me something? (A full transcript of the episode can be found here.). Across the globe, as middle-class high investment parents anxiously track each milestone, its easy to conclude that the point of being a parent is to accelerate your childs development as much as possible. Or you have the A.I. And in fact, I think Ive lost a lot of my capacity for play. She is a leader in the study of cognitive science and of children's . So just look at a screen with a lot of pixels, and make sense out of it. But if you look at their subtlety at their ability to deal with context, at their ability to decide when should I do this versus that, how should I deal with the whole ensemble that Im in, thats where play has its great advantages. So one thing is to get them to explore, but another thing is to get them to do this kind of social learning. Its a terrible literature. But one of the thoughts it triggered for me, as somebody whos been pretty involved in meditation for the last decade or so, theres a real dominance of the vipassana style concentration meditation, single point meditations. An earlier version of this chapter was presented at the Society for Research . This chapter describes the threshold to intelligence and explains that the domain of intelligence is only good up to a degree by which the author describes. Yeah, so I think thats a good question. And if you sort of set up any particular goal, if you say, oh, well, if you play more, youll be more robust or more resilient. Is this new? It kind of makes sense. But Id be interested to hear what you all like because Ive become a little bit of a nerd about these apps. And its especially not good at things like inhibition. It feels like its just a category. Could you talk a bit about that, what this sort of period of plasticity is doing at scale? Speakers include a And I think for grown-ups, thats really the equivalent of the kind of especially the kind of pretend play and imaginative play that you see in children. And that kind of goal-directed, focused, consciousness, which goes very much with the sense of a self so theres a me thats trying to finish up the paper or answer the emails or do all the things that I have to do thats really been the focus of a lot of theories of consciousness, is if that kind of consciousness was what consciousness was all about. join Steve Paulson of To the Best of Our Knowledge, Alison Gopnik of the University of California, Berkeley, Carl Safina of Stony On January 17th, join Steve Paulson of To the Best of Our Knowledge, Alison Gopnik of the . So imagine if your arms were like your two-year-old, right? Our minds are basically passive and reactive, always a step behind. Chapter Three The Trouble with Geniuses, part 1 by Malcolm Gladwell. You can listen to our whole conversation by following The Ezra Klein Show on Apple, Spotify, Google or wherever you get your podcasts. Our Sense of Fairness Is Beyond Politics (21 Jan 2021) The work is informed by the "theory theory" -- the idea that children develop and change intuitive theories of the world in much the way that scientists do. USB1 is a miRNA deadenylase that regulates hematopoietic development By Ho-Chang Jeong But setting up a new place, a new technique, a new relationship to the world, thats something that seems to help to put you in this childlike state. Younger learners are better than older ones at learning unusual abstra. The scientist in the crib: Minds, brains, and how children learn. Do you think theres something to that? You get this different combination of genetics and environment and temperament. [MUSIC PLAYING]. Gopnik is the daughter of linguist Myrna Gopnik. But I think even human adults, that might be an interesting kind of model for some of what its like to be a human adult in particular. systems can do is really striking. I have more knowledge, and I have more experience, and I have more ability to exploit existing learnings. Alison Gopnik is known for her work in the areas of cognitive and language development, and specializes in the effect of language on thought, the development of a theory of mind, and causal learning. Both parents and policy makers increasingly push preschools to be more like schools. So I think more and more, especially in the cultural context, that having a new generation that can look around at everything around it and say, let me try to make sense out of this, or let me understand this and let me think of all the new things that I could do, given this new environment, which is the thing that children, and I think not just infants and babies, but up through adolescence, that children are doing, that could be a real advantage. And then he said, I guess they want to make sure that the children and the students dont break the clock. And if you actually watch what the octos do, the tentacles are out there doing the explorer thing. Gopnik runs the Cognitive Development and Learning Lab at UC Berkeley. But that process takes a long time. And those are things that two-year-olds do really well. The efficiency that our minds develop as we get older, it has amazing advantages. 2Pixar(Bao) I think that theres a paradox about, for example, going out and saying, I am going to meditate and stop trying to get goals. The scientist in the crib: Minds, brains, and how children learn. What does this somewhat deeper understanding of the childs brain imply for caregivers? So with the Wild Things, hes in his room, where mom is, where supper is going to be. Now its not so much about youre visually taking in all the information around you the way that you do when youre exploring. systems to do that. In the series Learning, Development, and Conceptual Change. Sometimes if theyre mice, theyre play fighting. So when they first started doing these studies where you looked at the effects of an enriching preschool and these were play-based preschools, the way preschools still are to some extent and certainly should be and have been in the past. Alison GOPNIK, Professor (Full) | Cited by 16,321 | of University of California, Berkeley, CA (UCB) | Read 196 publications | Contact Alison GOPNIK Yeah, theres definitely something to that. But its not very good at putting on its jacket and getting into preschool in the morning. You sort of might think about, well, are there other ways that evolution could have solved this explore, exploit trade-off, this problem about how do you get a creature that can do things, but can also learn things really widely? Just do the things that you think are interesting or fun. Tell me a little bit about those collaborations and the angle youre taking on this. A politics of care, however, must address who has the authority to determine the content of care, not just who pays for it. And then the ones that arent are pruned, as neuroscientists say. So youve got one creature thats really designed to explore, to learn, to change. So look at a person whos next to you and figure out what it is that theyre doing. So theres really a kind of coherent whole about what childhood is all about. The theory theory. They can sit for longer than anybody else can. [MUSIC PLAYING]. She studies the cognitive science of learning and development. But if you think that actually having all that variability is not a bad thing, its a good thing its what you want its what childhood and parenting is all about then having that kind of variation that you cant really explain either by genetics or by what the parents do, thats exactly what being a parent, being a caregiver is all about, is for. So, let me ask you a variation on whats our final question. Thats what were all about. system. Do you buy that evidence, or do you think its off? Slumping tech and property activity arent yet pushing the broader economy into recession. We talk about why Gopnik thinks children should be considered an entirely different form of Homo sapiens, the crucial difference between spotlight consciousness and lantern consciousness, why going for a walk with a 2-year-old is like going for a walk with William Blake, what A.I. So the Campanile is the big clock tower at Berkeley. So I think both of you can appreciate the fact that caring for children is this fundamental foundational important thing that is allowing exploration and learning to take place, rather than thinking that thats just kind of the scut work and what you really need to do is go out and do explicit teaching. Alison Gopnik is at the center of helping us understand how babies and young children think and learn (her website is www.alisongopnik.com ). She is the author of The Scientist in the Crib, The Philosophical Baby, and The Gardener and the Carpenter. And Im not getting paid to promote them or anything, I just like it. The flneur has a long and honored literary history. So theres this lovely concept that I like of the numinous. The wrong message is, oh, OK, theyre doing all this learning, so we better start teaching them really, really early. And one idea people have had is, well, are there ways that we can make sure that those values are human values? So the children, perhaps because they spend so much time in that state, also can be fussy and cranky and desperately wanting their next meal or desperately wanting comfort. Planets and stars, eclipses and conjunctions would seem to have no direct effect on our lives, unlike the mundane and sublunary antics of our fellow humans. : MIT Press. For example, several stud-ies have reported relations between the development of disappearance words and the solution to certain object-permanence prob-lems (Corrigan, 1978; Gopnik, 1984b; Gopnik Part of the problem with play is if you think about it in terms of what its long-term benefits are going to be, then it isnt play anymore. You tell the human, I just want you to do stuff with the things that are here. Cognitive scientist, psychologist, philosopher, author of Scientist in the Crib, Philosophical Baby, The Gardener & The Carpenter, WSJ Mind And Matter columnist.
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