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JavaScript is disabled. 1840-1860. Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. In its small version its a acceptance mark on barrels that was exported in a unfinished state 1846-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small pistols and revolvers barrels 1866-1893, In its small version its a black powder mark on small revolvers cylinders 1866-1893. Bouquin Ad Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Galaxy M33 5G Galaxy Watch5 Galaxy Buds2 Pro Galaxy Book2 Pro 360 Antique Double Barrel Shotgun: Identifying, Valuing, and Buying Firearm Proof Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks Search. Today, quality 12-gauge field grade guns from all the American makers during this era can be found and purchased for less than $1,000. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . L. L. Hepburn percussion combination rifle, .36 cal. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. It could be almost anything: an English Greener, which would have Birmingham, England, proof marks, or it could be a double of dubious origin. into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is Collette Lopold Board Of to identify the manufacturer. Dallas, Donald. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. "Any maker's name or place of origin? On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size (or nominal bore) plus the shell or cartridge case length. Sorry for my delay in responding: I've been OOT and off-line for two weeks. Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. Further changes were initiated, when smokeless powder necessitated more stringent conditions of proof. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. These are original antique muzzleloaders that are made by individual gunsmiths or small manufacturing concerns, usually prior to the era of mass production, but sometimes well into the mid-19th century. Closset J.M. Counet-Leboulle J. In addition to Ancion Marx Spain depended for long upon the proof of individual armourers, and most Spanish barrels were marked with the stamp of the maker set in a square or oblong block under a crown. Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. Behr Jean jacques are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. Closset Louis - Remy Hubert The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. The Liege proof house was established in 1672 and it is the oldest European proof house still in operation. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. BELGIAN PROOF MARKSPROOF MARKS: BELGIAN PROOF MARKS, . Collings Hadelin Seen Thomas Jefferson. Smith & Wesson markets gun accessories, handcuffs, safes, apparel, watches, collectibles, knives, tools, air guns, and myriad other products under its brand name, including cologne, handbags, and washing machines. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Bernimolin Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 - HLEBOOKS.com To establish this rule, they constructed a proof house near the City of London. Christophe Henri Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Sorry I can't be more helpful. production. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Gun Markings - OldGuns.net This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. Coquilhat Aim Biography: Henri & Nicolas Pieper - Forgotten Weapons Again, thank you Marlin-Savage-Winchester Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . We have provided you In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. Chaineux J. Bernard Ernest There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? Rifles & Musket Information. weapon. Ray D, STOGERS, advertised them as being made for the AFRICAN tribes to hunt with because with them they would not be able to rebel against the BELGIAN rulers who had modern arms. Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Gun Barrel Proof Marks - Dave Cushman BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 These firearms Volunteer arms co. on October 29, 2020: 16 gauge serial number is 90524xe what would it be worth and how old is it. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Hits and Misses: Dating a Double-Barreled Hammer Gun - Blogger Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not Boden Now represents definitive black powder proof except for muzzle loaders, This mark is found on barrels and locks after voluntary semi-smokeless proof, Standard smokeless powder proof on military rifles below 8mm caliber.1898-present, Standard smokeless proof for all arms.1903-present, Mark applied to barrels which failed proof and have returned to makers for reworking. My uncle has this neat old revolver that he doesn't know much about Knowledge of commonly used military ammunition assists location, rather than a manufacturer. Bovy Thodore Joseph The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Introduced to designate arms proved in conformity of German Proof Law of 1891. Its weight Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. Bernard Lambert Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . or E.C. Bodson N. Vintage Belgium double barrel identification | The Firearms Forum Can be without star and ring. Help to identify old belgium shotgun please | Shotgun Forum Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. cases. 4 0 obj If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. Bookmark Inspectors mark, normally these are kept secret. Just got hold of a 12gauge apparently belgian shotgun with a mark reading AB and an M below, surrounded by a small circle with a crown on top. Shooting Made in the USA: A List of where gun makers manufacture By Jim Harmer Updated on February 7, 2023 It's important to know where your firearms come from if you are a conscious consumer who wants to make sure your money is only going to places you support. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. I found a couple on this site and also nramuseum.com leading me to believe its a British or Belgian gun. Your help is appreciated. Any idea what it all means? So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? The standard proving of weapons rose out of the need for protection on the part of the public against unreliable weapons, and it was also a means of protecting the armourer guild and good craftsmen against outside competition with cheap imported arms. If not, consider it loaded and potentially dangerous. The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. I have my grand dads Belgian Browning A5 Sweet Sixteen. I'll restrict myself therefore tosaying something about gun making in Belgium and offering some proof marks. The second is the crossed branches, with the letters A.E. You can also browse other antique pistols for sale or additional categories as diverse as Colts, Winchesters, and antique long guns. 3 vols. Baker, David J. GWO, good condition. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. Are you sure they are Damascus and not perhaps fake Damascus made by etching a spiral pattern on solid steel barrels for those who liked the look of Damascus? The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. this book online and pay it through Paypal. thanks for the help so far. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. Beckers G. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military to share our findings by this means of communication. Bayet Frres Rich engraved. There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited. Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! The blue is rough but the action works. 1860-1870. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. this location now so you can return often. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. - Galoppin I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource Since the U.S. has no proofing houses (as in England, France, Germany and . Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. Belgian Shotgun Identification Guide | Shotgun Forum We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. visiting our on-line listing of manufacturers identifying marks, Original Antique Gun Parts for Sale - International Military Antiques Many thanxPS:. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M Belgium Shotguns | Pricing Guides Dictionary & Values Arendt Maurice There are literally thousands of small individual makers, and often such . It's complete. Please note! They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over Serial Numbers. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. firearms books bibliary. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Antique Pistols and Handguns for Sale | Collectors Firearms Courard Wish I could be more helpful! Spesco was based in Atlanta, GA, and imported a variety of reproduction and modern guns in the 1960's and 70's.It would be a good idea to check that the rifle is unloaded. Other makers include Lebeau Courally and Mahillon. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. Home | Login | Register. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 Just as many muzzleloaders were converted to breechloadersthink of the Springfield trapdoor action or the British Snidermany pin-fires were converted to center-fire guns. Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks, Manufacturers Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. These marks have all the characteristic appearance of a rectangle, with a small blob at the top rather like a tied up sack of corn. The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. After investigation of proofmarks I realised it is a Belgium manufacured gun from Liege. Cap Joseph The proof marks shown below will assist in determining nationality of manufacturers when no other markings are evident. The third is a plain stamp, with the letters A.V.E. Belgium Belgian Proofmarks Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. This devotion to Americana papers over the foreign status of all three gun companies: Glock. . After years of looking at and trying I have pictures If you need them. The Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. 1840-1860. wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . Colette Victor Project Upland. Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. the 20th century. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. Belgian Liege gunmakers (G to K) - Volume 3 | Jan C. Still Lugerforums My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. Armourers marks are quite distinct from proof-marks, and comprise the private marks, ciphers, stamps, or signatures of the individual armourers or gunsmiths. Can you add any details? Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Braekers Charles & Cie There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. Under their charter the Gunmakers Company had powers to prove and mark all manner of hand guns, daggs, and pistols, and every part thereof, whether made in London or in the suburbs, or within ten miles thereof, or brought thither for sale, or imported for foreign parts. Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! It is located just above the circle with ELG. There's no indication of gauge. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. Four barrel . On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). The Ask the Pros & What's It Worth? Berleur Michel Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. I know the bottom image. Paypal, Order We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). Shotgun Manufacturers - Types of Shotguns for Auction at GunBroker.com It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. If you could find the time to give me a clue what exactly this gun is I would greatly appreciate it.Thanks,John. Subcategories This category has only the following subcategory. Belgium vs. Japan: Who Made the Better Browning Auto-5? I can send pictures of it. Bultot Jean It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . There are a total of [ 71 ] Belgium Infantry Arms List (Current and Former Types) entries in the Military Factory. As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." Chaumont M.J. Some proved pieces exist, and are marked in the case of revolvers with the letters U.S., in the case of other arms with the letters V.P. Modern pistols and revolvers are proved in their last stage of manufacture when complete with action and in firing order. Warnant Top Break Double Action Revolver - Revivaler Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers' Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. listed in alphabetical order. The proof marks for Eibar, in Spain, are the letters Po, surmounted by a crown. source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. Thanks Hause. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. and an eagles head. ]v8 >ZX 2Fu}) It is a hammer back breakaway 12 gauge side by side. proof marks. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. Beuret Frres time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. By Alain Daubresse. List of firearm brands - Wikipedia The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Baron Emile As I've said, I'm not an expert. I'll test it very cautiously. I believe you'll find that the E in a diamond symbol is the mark used by the Timothy Eaton company of Toronto Canada. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Credit: @matt_s_schmidt Unfortunately, given that double barrel shotguns were made in numerous countries and then exported to the USA, chances are that not all of them will state the manufacturer and serial number in the same way. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. (copy right L.R. The Great Exhibition of 1851 in London did much to publicize Lefaucheuxs system. JavaScript is disabled. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Burlet Birmingham had also a proof, but this test was not obligatory, and makers evaded the tests. they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. Thanks again for the help! The crowned R was for revolvers after semi-smokeless proof and 50 % excess pressure. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. PDF PROOF MARKS ProoF MarKs - NRA Museum Designates rifled barrel. "Arsenal" or "Inspector Marks". Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Where did you find the Falla mark? In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. If I was asked for a guess for a dollar I would say mid 1930's. Antique Shotguns & Belgian Shotguns Side by Side - Collectors Firearms The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Bischop Pierre Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Thank y'all again! is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber How do I price this piece? Colot Or any info? http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. "Cueruy" could be the maker. Hi Gerard and everyone! No maker's name anywhere? << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> individual armorers and inspectors used their own unique stamps in some Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. 10 Biggest American Gun Companies Share a Rich History - Wide Open Spaces We now have 1689 serial numbers!. No maker's name at all. Proof Marks or Very helpfull once again. Greetings Easthampton,I have been researching an old antique pistol that has been in our family for generations.What leads me to your group was the Hits and Misses article posted in 2014; on Deciphering Belgian Proof Marks (my piece has the spelling Belgium). Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export.
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